Addendum to "Dandelions..."

Hello all, here are some of my responses (IN CAPS) to some things my friend had to say about my last blog. (His begins below and is in the font that I am typing in now).

I do have a couple points to make. I fear that you apply a double standard to people. Sacrilege? Maybe. But I am disturbed by 2 of your broad, sweeping statements, which are these:

1. "People like this are certainly alienated from their labor because they are not passionate for it, and thus do not have a connection with what they do, other than it connects them to financial security pretty much."

2. "I do think that they are beautiful, in fact, the word "beautiful" sickens me a bit to use in conjunction with the word poor because I know that it does not do them justice."

My issues with Statement 1 are as follows. Where is the idea that poor are more passionate about work, or that lawyers are dispassionate, uncaring, etc. coming from, and most importantly, is it necessarily true that these conditions cause each other? Remember the basic fact. Correlation does not imply causation. Certainly there are lawyers who are just in it for the money. There are doctors, engineers, teachers, and even some of your favorite professions, farmers, and minimum wage workers, who are just in it for the money. In fact, I would be more inclined to theorize that that the less you earn, the more your work is for the money, as it is more necessary. Let me add that there are many people who work because they love it, and that these tend to be more affluent for the simple reason that they can afford it. Where is the difference, besides scale, of a lawyer working for nothing but greed, and a poor person working at Mcdonalds for the same? Just because the emotion can be more visibly expressed by the lawyer (cars, big houses, etc.) doesnt mean that the poor person is not greedy or does not aspire to material wealth. This, after all, is the purpose of work. I fear that you have only selected a profession that does not inspire admiration, and coupled it with an issue that touches buttons for a lot of people, and created a decidedly unsympathetic figure with which to personify the "rich". I don't doubt that many lawyers are shady figures, or even that they care about money, but lets be honest as well. It takes dedication, many years, and many thousands of dollars to go to law school. It is a little condescending in my opinion therefore, to label them as "dispassionate". The purpose of a capitalist society is to reward hard work with money. Thus, I have no problem with the money lawyers earn, as the work they have put into their degree entitles them to monetary reward. Otherwise, why would anyone put in the time? I AGREE COMPLETELY WITH MANY OF YOUR POINTS. SORRY, I MUST HAVE BEEN SOMEWHAT UNCLEAR AND PERHAPS I DID NOT GIVE ENOUGH BACKGROUND OF MANIFESTO. I DO NOT THINK THAT THE POOR ARE NECESSARILY MORE PASSIONATE ABOUT THEIR WORK. I DID NOT EVEN REALLY DELVE INTO THAT SUBJECT. AND I REALLY ADMIRE SOME LAWYERS. I WAS NOT TRYING TO MAKE GENERALIZATIONS ABOUT ALL LAWYERS, I MEANT THAT THE LAWYER IN THE EXAMPLE WAS ALIENATED FROM HIS/HER LABOR BECAUSE HE/SHE ORIGINALLY WANTED TO WORK FOR THE ENVIRONMENT BUT FOUND THEMSELVES IN A SITUATION WHERE HE/SHE WAS WORKING AGAINST THE ENVIRONMENT DUE TO THINGS LIKE JOB DEMAND, ETC. THIS WAS NO WAY A BASH ON LAWYERS. SORRY FOR MY MISCOMUNNICATIONS. EXACTLY RIGHT ABOUT THE POOR AND WHY THEY DO THEIR JOBS. I STRONGLY STRONGLY AGREE AND I THINK IT'S SAD, THEY REALLY ONLY DO A LOT OF THINGS SO THEY CAN GET THE MONEY THEY NEED TO SURVIVE. ALTHOUGH, A LAWYER BEING GREEDY IS SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT THAN A SINGLE-PARENT WORKING AT MCDONALD'S TO FEED HIS/HER CHILDREN. MARX WANTED LABOR TO BE SOMETHING PEOPLE REALLY LOVED, HE WANTED THEM TO HAVE A CONNECTION WITH IT, HE WANTED IT TO GIVE THEIR LIFE MEANING, WHEN I TALKED ABOUT LABOR IN MY ASIDE I WAS MAINLY COMMENTING ON THE FACT THAT MANY PEOPLE DO NOT PREFORM THE TYPE OF LABOR MARX WANTED PEOPLE TO DO. ALTHOUGH HE ONLY SPEAKS ABOUT THE PROLETARIAT BEING ALIENATED, I ARGUE THAT MORE THAN JUST THE PROLETARIAT HAVE BEEN ALIENATED FROM THEIR LABOR. I ONLY LABELED LAWYERS WHO THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO FIGHT FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVED ININ AND NOW FIND THEMSELVES FIGHTING AGAINST WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN AS NOT PASSIONATE ABOUT THEIR LABOR; I DO NOT CLAIM THAT THEY ARE DISPASSIONATE PEOPLE. INDEED, THEY ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT HELPING THE ENVIRONMENT AND THAT IS WHAT LEADS TO THEM NOT BEING PASSIONATE ABOUT WORKING AGAINST THE ENVIRONMENT. SORRY, PERHAPS THIS WAS A WEIRD EXAMPLE, IT OFTEN COMES UP WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL LAWYERS THOUGH. GOOD WORK, YOU BRING UP ONE OF THE STRONGEST POINTS OF REFUTATION OF THE CM-WHERE IS THE INCENTIVE? WHICH MARX DOES ANSWER, THOUGH I DON'T KNOW HOW ADEQUATELY. PERSONALLY, I FEEL LIKE DUE TO THE FLAWS OF HUMANS AND OUR LARGE POPULATION, AS I SPECIFIED EARLIER, THERE PROBABLY DOES NEED TO BE INCENTIVES OF SOME FORM, THOUGH I DON'T KNOW IF THEY ALWAYS NEED TO BE MONETARY, BUT THAT IS FOR ANOTHER TIME...I DO, HOWEVER, LIKE WHAT HE HAS TO SAY ABOUT PEOPLE LOVING WHAT THEY DO.

My issues with #2 are mostly the same. I am always hesitant to make group generalizations. There really isn't much difference to me between the statements, "Poor people are beautiful", and "White people are beautiful". I suppose I am a little disappointed in you for this; I would have expected more from you. Poor people, white people, and all other classifications of people run the gamut between good and bad, and anywhere in between. Most people have some good and some bad in them, whatever that means. Again, I do not dispute the idea that some, perhaps even a majority, of the materially poor are decent people, and may even inspire hope and other good emotions. But what about those who dont? Is a rapist beautiful? More violent criminals come from poor backgrounds than any other, and not all crimes can be traced to desperation. I realize my depiction is simplistic as well, but I don't think anyone can just shoehorn a whole group of people into one trait.

VERY GOOD POINTS. I DO THINK THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEAUTIFUL AND BLACK PEOPLE AS WELL AND ALL RACES. BUT YOU BRING UP VERY GOOD POINTS. I GUESS I DO NOT CONSIDER THE "RAPIST" BEAUTIFUL, BUT I'M FAIRLY CERTAIN THAT HE/SHE HAD BEAUTIFUL QUALITIES AT SOME POINT IN HIS/HER LIFE, EVEN IF IT WAS ONLY FOR A FEW FLEETING MOMENTS DURING CHILDHOOD. (THIS GOES ALONG NICELY WITH YOUR GAMUT COMMENT) I THINK RAPE IS A SICKENING, DISGUSTING ACT. PROBABLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DISGUSTS ME THE MOST IN LIFE. SO I WOULD OF COURSE NEVER THINK THAT RAPE IS BEAUTIFUL, I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHO WOULD. BUT WE HAVE TO ASK WHY PEOPLE FROM POOR BACKGROUNDS ARE MORE LIKELY TO DO THESE THINGS. AGAIN, WITH THE WHOLE THINKING THING, I KNOW, RIGHT? BUT YEAH, I WAS MAKING GENERALIZATIONS, I SUPPOSE I COULD HAVE SAID, "LET ME TELL YOU THE STORY ABOUT JAMES...LET ME TELL YOU THE STORY ABOUT DEB...LET ME TELL YOU THE STORY ABOUT MAYOR JC...LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE WOMAN FROM THE SHELTER WHO CALLED ME LIL' MAMA...LET ME TELL YOU THE WONDERFUL LOVE STORY OF MY GRAMMA AND GRANDPA..." AND PERHAPS, SOMEDAY, I WILL MOVE TO MORE CONCRETE EXAMPLES, IN FACT, THAT IS PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA, THANK YOU FOR IT. WHAT IF I THINK PEOPLE IN GENERAL ARE BEAUTIFUL? CUZ THAT IS WHAT I TEND TO THINK. WELL, LET ME TELL YOU ONE THING, IT LEADS TO DISAPPOINTMENT. AND ME BEING SWINDLED, OH, SAY OUT OF $55 CUZ I THOUGHT I WAS HELPING A KID GO TO COLLEGE, ETC, ETC ( I SHOULD HAVE WATCHED OFFICE SPACE, I KNOW, BECAUSE IT WAS A MAGAZINE SCAM). AND IF YOU ASK ME WHY I KEEP THINKING PEOPLE ARE BEAUTIFUL? I PROBABLY COULDN'T GIVE YOU A SATISFACTORY, NEAT, CONCISE, AND/OR LOGICAL ANSWER. OTHER THAN I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING THAT CALLS US BEYOND OURSELVES, AND I SEE MYSELF IN OTHERS, AND I CAN'T REALLY CONSIDER MYSELF APART FROM THEM, BUT, I DIGRESS...

Also, before I let this go completely, I would like to point out another observation. It could be that I am misunderstanding what you mean, and that instead of an individual poor person being beautiful, you have a certain admiration for the "poor person" as something noble or good. The reason I mention this is i see the same attitude toward the small family farmer, and toward the hunter gatherer. I would caution you from this line of thinking. I doubt very much if poor people want to be poor, or if all family farmers want to struggle every year against the land, or hunter-gatherers wouldn't trade their lifestyle for something more stable. I worry that coming from an affluent suburban girl, as much as you may feel guilty about your upbringing, this whole attitude comes off a bit patronizing. Kind of like, "Awwww, look at you, poor and making it anyways, thats so cute". I don't think this is a good attitude to take. Perhaps I am wrong. But I do get a little sense of that from you.

IT IS THE INDIVIDUAL STORIES AND PEOPLE I HAVE MET WHO HAVE LED ME TO FORM THESE BELIEFS OF THEIR BEAUTY. BUT, ONE THING YOU MENTION THAT IS A VERY GOOD POINT IS WHAT ABOUT WHEN THE PEOPLE ARE NO LONGER POOR AND THEY BECOME MORE WEALTHY AND EVEN DESIRE TO DO SO? ARE THEY NO LONGER BEAUTIFUL. IN SHORT, MY ANSWER IS NO. I NEED TO STRONGLY EMPHASIZE THIS NEXT STATEMENT- I DO NOT MEAN TO BE PATRONIZING. I THINK YOU FORGET THAT MY DAD GREW UP EXTREMELY POOR. HIS DAD WOULD PASS OUT IN CHURCH BECAUSE HE DIDN'T EAT SO HIS KIDS COULD. MY DAD SAYS THAT STILL, MANY OF THE HAPPIEST DAYS OF HIS LIFE OCCURRED WHEN HE WAS POOR. HIS STORIES, AND THE STORIES OF OTHERS, AS WELL AS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, SHOW ME THAT THE POOR SOMETIMES GET THINGS (ABOUT LIFE) THAT THE WEALTHY DON'T. AND ONCE AGAIN, IT'S HARD TO DESCRIBE, AND MAYBE IN FUTURE WRITINGS I WILL MOVE TO MORE CONCRETE EXAMPLES. I REALLY DO NOT WANT TO BE PATRONIZING THOUGH. THAT IS BAD. IN FACT, I WANT THE POOR TO HAVE BETTER CONDITIONS, AND I KNOW IT IS IMPORTANT TO SEE THEM AS THE FULLY REALIZED HUMAN BEINGS THEY ARE, NOT JUST PROJECTS FOR PEOPLE TO WORK ON; NOT JUST CHANCES TO DO SERVICE AND "HELP" THEM. BECAUSE, QUITE TRUTHFULLY, IN MANY CASES, THEY WOULD BE QUITE FINE WITHOUT THE "HELP" WE GIVE THEM, THEIR LIVES WOULD CONTINUE, I JUST THINK THINGS ARE REALLY UNFAIR, AND I GUESS WRITING IS MY WAY OF EXPRESSING THAT. AND I ALSO FEEL LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE PUSH UNPLEASANT THINGS FROM THEIR MIND AND KIND OF CLOSE THEIR EARS AND EYES, IF YOU WILL; THAT WAS PROBABLY A CENTRAL POINT IN THIS PIECE. I KIND OF JUST WANT PEOPLE TO BE AWARE, AND NOT IGNORE THINGS AS MUCH.

ADDENDUM ADDENDUM: I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF WEALTHY PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO DO GREAT THINGS WITH THEIR MONEY. I REALLY ADMIRE THOSE PEOPLE FOR ALL OF THEIR GIVING. I DON'T THINK I THINK THAT EVERYONE IS SUPPOSED TO MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT NECESSARILY. ONCE AGAIN, THIS WAS NOT MEANT TO BE A RICH-BASHING SESSION. I APPRECIATE HARD WORK AND SAVING, I JUST ALSO SEE THAT AS AMERICANS, WE ARE ALL SUCH HUGE CONSUMERS THAT IT HAS LED US TO HAVE A HUGE ECOLOGICAL FOOTPRINT, ETC. I THINK THAT IT'S REALLY REALLY NICE WHEN PEOPLE SHARE :) I GUESS I WISH PEOPLE COULD GET A FEW THINGS THEY REALLY WANTED THAT WOULD MEAN A LOT INSTEAD OF THINKING THAT THEY NEEDED SOOOOOO SOOOOO MUCH. I AM NOT EXCLUDING MYSELF FROM THIS LIST OF PEOPLE. I AM AN AMERICAN TOO. AND MIND YOU, PROUD OF IT AND EXTREMELY HAPPY TO BE ONE, I'M JUST SAYING, WE ARE DEFINITELY NOT PERFECT AND COULD BE MAKING SOME LIFESTYLE CHANGES.